Record of the Year interview with Jason Cropper - May 1, 2020

Audio interview with Jason Cropper
Publication	We'z Talkin' Weez' 2 Thee
Published	May 1, 2020
Interviewer	Chris + Chris
Interviewee	Jason Cropper
Title	THE BLUE ALBUM Track-by-Track w/ Jason Cropper (founding member of Weezer)
Sub-title	"Folks this is a very special episode! Today we've got a 2 hour conversation about our beloved BLUE ALBUM with the great Jason Cropper, former guitarist and founding member of Weezer alongside Rivers, Pat and Matt. Jason was there while these songs were being written, arranged and recorded - heck, he even wrote the famed intro to "My Name Is Jonas" - and he's here to share all of his memories about these amazing songs and his time in the band. We hope you enjoy this as much as we did!"
Format	Audio
External link	via Buzzsprout
References	See where this article is referenced on Weezerpedia

This track-by-track interview with Jason Cropper covers what it was like to be involved in the production of The Blue Album. Although he is not pictured on the cover of Weezer's Blue Album, Cropper is considered a founding member of the band and was with the band from its formative years until just before the release of Blue.

Transcript

Chris + Chris: Hello and welcome everyone to the Blue Album Battle, the podcast where we peer into the music of the 90s through a Blue Album tinted lens. And boy do we have something a little bit special for you guys today. I dare say a lot a bit special. Today we're going to be peering at the world from inside The Blue Album looking out. -That's right. That's pretty well said, Chris. I'm impressed. -Pretty well said is well said. -Yeah, that's right. Today we are going to be doing a track by track dissection of The Blue Album with a little special guest, someone by the name of Jason Cropper, AKA founding member and guitarist of the band Weezer. -No big deal. -Yeah, Jason is kind enough to join us today for one of our extensive and extensively nerdy deep dives into this album that we love so much and I cannot wait to hear what he has to say. So I think without further ado, let's just get right into the conversation. -Right on.

Chris + Chris: Well, we are thrilled to be joined here by Jason Cropper and we are talking about all things Blue Album, which. -Again. -Yeah, yeah. As if we haven't done that enough, but what better place than a man who was there as these songs were written, as these songs were developed and as these songs were recorded. The great Jason Cropper. Jason, thank you so much for joining us.

Jason: Oh my gosh, Chris and Chris, let's play down the great, the- I’m just Jason Cropper and yes, Blue Album rocks.

Chris + Chris: Modest as always. -No, it said in your email, call me “Jason The Great”. And so I said, okay man, if that's going to be your condition, you can come on the show, I guess.

Jason: Okay. It's your show.

Chris + Chris: My saw's out right now, man. So one thing that's really impressed me listening to interviews with you and reading interviews, it was a great writeup for Yahoo music last year around the 25th anniversary of blue was just your recall. I just, I'm very impressed by the clarity and sense of chronology that you seem to have for this period, early nineties, making music with the guys in Weezer. And you cover that beautifully with Rachel on “We Are Weezer” and I recommend everyone listen to that podcast if you want to get a sense of the early days of Weezer, but let's start here. Okay. So you're talking at an Italian restaurant with Rivers Cuomo, you hear Nirvana on the radio, you look at each other and go Rivers, you could have written this song from that period to two years later, you're signed to Nirvana's label Geffen Records. Talk about that journey a little bit to being the band that could make The Blue Album.

Jason: Oh wow. Yeah, that's a great question. Right. So we're, we're in 1991. Sometime between May and December, because that's when I had the job at the restaurant and Rivers worked alongside me for some of that time. I think it was in the late summer. And as you know, Weezer's first official rehearsal was Valentine's Day that following year 1992. And so that was a real pivotal time for Rivers as a writer. He just- it was as if something just really fell into place for him because he hadn't been focused on writing in a particular vein that was going to mine so much goodness that I could see prior to that. He had created and finished a lot of projects prior to that, but they were going in different directions and not in a more singular direction that became the, you know, sort of the canon of The Blue Album, the, you know, the back catalog, if you will, of, you know, what The Blue Album was crystallized from. So it was really fun and inspirational really to watch him do this and, you know, and it was really a, an interplay between him and Pat, where I got to see and hear this development because Pat and I lived together and Rivers had his own place. And so I would come home from work and Pat would have a track that he was working on in our little home studio, and then he would give it to Rivers and then something would come back with, you know, lyrics and melody on it, for example, or what would also come back would be new songs that Rivers had written on his own, you know, lyrics, music, arrangement. And so they were just playing this game together and I would just sit and watch and listen and every once in a while I would get a word in or a musical idea in edgewise.

Chris + Chris: Stuff with two heavy hitters like that.

Jason: They were very driven and they had, you know, really worked on their relationship as collaborators, you know, in the year or so prior because they had been literally room, like roommates in the same bedroom, like, you know, struggling musicians as we were, you know, if you wanted to focus on your music, you couldn't exactly devote all your time to a full time job and still develop your, you know, your talent, so to speak. And so they had both wrestled with that as young men in Los Angeles in the early 90s. I was too, you know, but they had spent that time, they had really teamed up in a way that they still are, you know, today.

Chris + Chris: So Jason, maybe you could tell us a little bit about getting signed with Geffen Records and how that whole thing started.

Jason: So this was 1992, 1993, playing in clubs in Los Angeles, maybe doing some little tours up and down the coast. But at this time in the music industry world of Los Angeles, in order to, it was sort of a catch-22. It's like, how can we get a record deal if we can't get record labels interested? And how can we get record labels interested if we don't, you know, have a record or have a record deal? And so, and there was that typical weird rule that record labels used back in the day of like, oh, is this unsolicited? Meaning we didn't ask you to bring us this music of your demonstration of your band, then we can't listen to it. Well, why not? Well, because if we have something else in the hopper, so to speak, that's going to come out, that's anything like this, you might sue us because we listened to your music without asking you for it. And it was just, you know, on one hand, I think it was just a way for the people who were in the A&R community to not be just completely inundated by everybody. And they want to have stuff that is coming from a channel that they trust, whether it's a lawyer or a manager or a record producer, whomever is bringing them the band or the artist to listen to. And so we didn't have that network per se at our disposal of a team of people to then go and find. So we had to do it the old-fashioned way, which was to go out and play the clubs and hope that somebody was there and ask everybody we knew who was in the business to please come and to please bring a friend. And that implied, like, if you know anybody in the business, please bring them.

Chris + Chris: So can you tell us about that one fateful night that a record label that was actually there at one of your gigs?

Jason: There were three that I'm aware of. And I think that the guy like Matt and Rivers, I think, kind of like kept me out of worrying about this stuff, probably wisely, because there was no need for me to participate. I would have probably screwed it up at the time. But there was one night where we played a little nightclub called Genghis Cohen, which was on Fairfax. I don't know if it's still there. Probably not now. But somehow they had been talking with the guys at Restless Records, a record label that I later teamed up with for Chopper One. I remember the president of Restless Records came forward and said, a guy named Joe Regis, really nice guy. He said, I really like the band. Let's make a record. Let's make a record with Weezer at Restless. And everybody and we were all glowing. It was I remember Pat was like, we had a conversation about afterwards. He was like, we should do this. I just I want to do this. And Rivers and Matt, cooler heads prevailed. And they're like, let's wait. Let's not rush into this. If we can get one interested, it means we can get more. Let's figure this out. And so somehow I think it was at a really cool place called Club Lingerie on Sunset Boulevard. There was a free Monday night show every Monday night. And all kinds of cool bands came out of that scene.

Chris + Chris: I mean, it sounds very classy.

Jason: I mean, yeah, like and these are the these are brought to you by the club promoters in Hollywood who discovered Jane’s Addiction, Rage Against the Machine, you know, Guns N’ Roses, right, the same template, the same people, the same network, and they were working now and you know, you would you would see Paul Westerberg would play at Club Lingerie like on a Thursday night. It was [Unintelligible] right. For example, lots of great people play there's, it’s a good sounding club. So Weezer got the opportunity to play this Club Lingerie place on some Monday nights. And I think Rivers hired a sound guy who was a record producer named Paul De Grey, who I think has worked on The Rentals records since to come and help do sound. And I think Paul really helped us sound better and a lot of innovative and interesting ways that he's, you know, capable of and known for and infamous for in some circles, really talented record producer, musical engineer. And I remember there was an A&R there were two people from Slash Records. And I'm gonna just be a total idiot here and not remember their names, Randy and Marcy. I don't remember Randy's last name. I think he's passed away now. But these are the people who discovered Violent Femmes and Faith No More and BoDeans and a bunch of really cool, you know, bands on the Slash record label. Failure. And so they came forward and wanted to schedule a meeting. And I think Rivers and Matt went to a meeting with them. And then it was kind of made known like, they want to sign the band. And so this went back and forth for a couple weeks until finally somebody said to, I think it was Matt who said to Randy, Well, what do we do now? And Randy said, “get a lawyer.” And that was a Pandora's box for Slash and for Weezer. Because once the record label said, “get a lawyer,” then we could go find somebody who is in that aforementioned network of, “Oh, is this solicited?” “Yeah. Because this lawyer said, You should listen to it, A&R guy. And she knows your boss,” or whatever. And so Rivers and Matt went and found Jamie Young, the famed Jamie, who then took the organization by the reins and made it happen.

Chris + Chris: So before we get too far into this, Jason, I want to backtrack a little bit. I know you said cooler heads prevailed with Matt and Rivers wanting to wait. What would have been the downfall of signing with Restless Records? What was the driving force behind waiting and what was the benefit of waiting?

Jason: Well, that was hard to know at the time because nothing was certain and we had this sort of bird in the hand. So on one hand, you had this idealization of like, Hey, bird in the hand, like, Let's go, let's get started. Let's take the next step. Let's make the record and release it and have like a pathway forward here as opposed to we're still slogging it out in the clubs, which truth be told, most record, most bands who got record deals, whether with Restless or Slash or Geffen or Warner or any of the other multitude of record labels that existed at that time, they were just going to do exactly that. After they got their record deal, they were going to continue to slog it out in the clubs because most of them you never heard of. They just got a record deal and that was it. That was the end. That was the last thing you ever heard of this band. They just disappeared off the face of the earth, literally. And so Rivers and Matt had a much more singular vision of what Weezer was capable of. And there was a real gravity and power and determination and ambition there with the two of them as a core unit, business-wise and an arc of the band-wise, that The Blue Album being what it is now would not exist just as Pat and Rivers writing songs together and Rivers writing all these songs on his own, me contributing a little bit to that. Just as important is what Matt was able to, I think, accomplish. Sort of as, you know, I don’t know if he was like- I don't think there was ever a formal arrangement or anything like that, but it was powerful for Weezer in that Matt could go and represent the band in a way at a meeting and Rivers could kidn of stay- be in the background as this more enigmatic, like, oh, you don't get into the inner circle yet to be around him. He's busy writing and recording and personifying this thing that we're doing. Around him. And that wasn't necessarily said as much as it was implied. And I think that the psychology of that, of having a person there, the bass player who was scheduling meetings and handing out the demo tapes or making the phone calls to invite people to the shows more, it helped for Rivers to be more enigmatic and thus people desired to find out who is this guy who's writing these cool songs about the sweater? Who is this guy who's writing these cool songs? What's this “Say It Ain't So”? That's so cool. Record producers would come around because they were sniffing out future work and they wanted to be a part of it at the ground floor. And Matt was, and at Rivers direction, I think Matt was reaching out to these people and kind of being a representative in a way, you know?

Chris + Chris: Those roles seemed to suit their inherent personalities as well. -Sure seems that way. Absolutely.

Jason: They worked very well together then. It was really important. It was a good team.

Chris + Chris: Now, is there a label you guys ever talked about targeting as like, oh, if we can land at Geffen, Warner Brothers has REM, Epic has Pearl Jam. Was there like a wishlist of labels?

Jason: Absolutely. Everything was very visualized and talked about and oh man, we would enthusiastically discuss the possibilities and just figure out a way to connect the dots and to make this vision become reality.

Chris + Chris: That's awesome. So you end up at Geffen Records. When does Ric Ocasek come into the picture? The great producer.

Jason: Yeah, right. That was magical. That was a magical moment when everybody just took a step back. Everybody in the band at that point took a step back and had to pinch themselves and just admit like, whoa, that just happened. Todd, the A&R guy who signed Weezer to Geffen said, it's time to get a record producer. And so names started being suggested. And I knew of Ric as a record producer because I was a fan of band in DC by Bad Brains. And I remember seeing his name in the liner notes and thinking, Ric Ocasek from The Cars produced that? That's so cool. That's so credible, man.

Chris + Chris: It's kind of crazy to think about, right? Like who Bad Brains are and what they sound like and then to be produced by a guy like that.

Jason: Yeah. And he had really cool stories about that, which were like, you could tell he had seen them at a club and was just freaking blown away like anybody in their right mind would be because all you have to do is pull up a video of HR doing a backstand through a curtain and landing at the microphone, not even like landing and he grabs it and is singing from a backflip as the band tears into, I mean, name one of their 180 beats per minute. Really fast, typical Bad Brains song. The guy was a maniac. He's literally, I think, just one of those amazing forces. And so the fact that Ric had done that when somebody said, oh, yeah, how about we get Ric Ocasek? And I think the idea that he had also studied under Glyn Johns and he had studied under Mutt Lange and for Cars Records. And then he had these relationships in New York at Electric Lady Studios and with Chris Shaw and he had his team together for making records and that's what he had kind of camped out and kind of made his life all about at that point.

Chris + Chris: What do you remember about that first meeting with Ocasek? Did he come to a band practice? Is that how it went down?

Jason: That's right. The band was rehearsing at a place called Cole Rehearsal in Hollywood between Melrose and Santa Monica on Cole, I think it's Avenue, Boulevard. I don't think it's there anymore. And we knew he was coming and we had worked up just what I needed to cover. And we were like pounding out the harmonies with the amps too loud and just loving being in a good sounding rehearsal studio for the first time ever because it had been the garage before that, which did not sound good. And he walks in while we're playing a song. I don't remember if it was “The Sweater Song” or whatever, but we stopped and he said, “Oh no, don't stop. Just go ahead. Just pretend I'm not even here.” And this really tall, elegant man sat down on the floor and just kind of put his legs out straight and crossed them. And he pulled and he had a little man purse. He was very hip for 1993. And he pulled out a pad of paper and a little high quality pen and started sketching. And, I remember, he showed us this. He's like, “I just like to draw. So I'm just going to draw over here.” And it was like all of a sudden it didn't matter that it was Ric Ocasek, like 10 million plus albums sold world tour dominating one of the greatest rock stars of all time sitting in the room. It felt like free time at art class, elementary school, after school program. And Rivers, I remember he looks at everybody and like, I don't think he even said like, oh, let's play just what I, it was just like, yeah, just what I needed. And so we did it and it was just this, it was literally just what we all needed.

Chris + Chris: Man, that's awesome. So now fast forward a little bit to New York City. You're in Electric Lady Studios. Do you remember the first song as Weezer that you started to work on in that studio to record The Blue Album? Even just first impressions of the studio itself, you know, this legendary studio, Ric Ocasek, Geffen Records, other side of the country. Had you been to New York before?

Jason: I had been to New York before as a child, but this was just so eye opening and you know, my ego is out of control. I was like, oh yeah.

Chris + Chris: As any, you know, 20 year old. -Yeah. Were you 20 at this time? 21? -You just made it.

Jason: Right, so let’s see… I turned 22 while we were there.

Chris + Chris: Wow. So you're king of the world, man.

Jason: Oh my gosh. Like way out of control. I don't remember the first song we played. It was probably “The Sweater Song” or maybe be “No One Else” or something new. But at this point, Rivers really moved further along and rightfully so into his rightful role as, you know, not just bandleader, songwriter, singer, but musical director. He really started to take ownership of that. And it was just so beautiful to watch him work. He has such a great work ethic. And we had been practicing barbershop quartet in Los Angeles. Without the hats or the jackets. So I think we got there and he was intent on continuing to keep the vocal thing going the whole time. Like he wanted to stay in because when you're a vocal centric performing band like Weezer is, you have to practice and you have to warm up and practice like a little bit or a lot every day in order to stay in the zone. Right. And you don't have to look much farther than like, you know, like “Africa” as like that is a demanding song to be able to do. You can't just stop and sing that professionally sounding without having practiced it for like 30 days straight and figured it out and know, you know, what your markers are and how to get to some of those wacky notes. So anyways, I don't remember the first song we played. I just remember it was like being beamed up to the Enterprise or something. It was that much of a, you know, just paradigm shift.

Chris + Chris: Yeah. I mean from playing in these dirty smoky clubs in Los Angeles, trying to make it. Searching for a record label, night in, night out. Digging as deep as you can to all of a sudden be here in New York City, in this studio, with this legend.

Jason: And even more to to your point, Chris, the humble origin of the garage, and Rivers’ apartment before that, which was even more humble. One little room in the back of a house.

Chris + Chris: What a transition. Did it feel like it was overnight? I mean, you guys weren't an overnight success, but in the grand scheme of like from inception of band to this position, it happened pretty quickly for you guys.

Jason: It seemed like it took a long time. And I think one of the things that really marks that emotionally as a way to paint a picture of it was, you know, there was a time- a long time, you know, several months, like not just like two months, but like I think six or seven months where Pat Wilson basically rented out a garage and he didn't have like a living room in there. Okay. It was just like wood slats and like a concrete floor and like grease stains and one light bulb hanging from a wire and he had like a blanket and a pillow. And he showered at the public shower at Santa Monica Beach. And he paid like a hundred dollars a month or something like that to a couple of women who were willing to let him stay there.

Chris + Chris: So in other words, “No, Chris, it did not feel like it was an overnight success. We worked hard to get to this position.” And obviously I'm not doubting that, but just to say, yeah, you guys put in the time to get to this point.

Jason: Well, yeah. And I think that Rivers and Pat and Matt more than me, because remember I moved to Los Angeles in May of 1991 and by May of 1993, we're in New York. I believe Rivers moved to Los Angeles in 1988 or 89. And I think Matt may have been there even longer. Pat at least a year longer than me from what I know. That was not an overnight success for them. You know, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93. So that's five years. And for a young man who is like in his early twenties, like Rivers or Pat or Matt were at that time, that's a quarter of your life.

Chris + Chris: Yeah. It feels like an eternity.

Jason: Your entire adult life, because if you left Connecticut when you were 17 or 18, you were basically a child.

Chris + Chris: I mean, that's the time it takes to get a degree. Right. So that's literally what they did. They got the degree and here's their diplomas getting to be in Electric Lady Studios recording an album like this.

Jason: It's a good analogy. Yeah.

Chris + Chris: So we're in the studio. Let's get into the record. We're going track by track. We want to touch upon every song. This is what we do, you know, and who better to do it with than Jason Cropper himself, the great Jason Cropper himself. -He didn't say it. -But I'll tell you what, here's the defense for his greatness. Track one, “My Name is Jonas”.

Jason: Okay, yeah. When I, like, I hadn't listened to The Blue Album in a number of years and I was at a friend's house and we had you know, maybe had a couple beers and it was relaxed kind of fun atmosphere and, and he puts on he doesn't tell me and he cues up The Blue Album. And it starts playing and he turns it up really loud as the acoustic guitar fade, you know, starts coming and he turns it up and then speakers explode because that song is designed to do that. Sure. And like halfway through the song, I'm like realizing and I'm like, Oh my. And I look at him and he turns it down and he's, just, shit-eating grin. It’s my, my friend David. And he's like, what do you think? You like this song? And I, and I couldn't help it. I just said, I think this is the greatest lead in song on a debut album ever.

Chris + Chris: Well said. We've said that before. I think we're finding that in our Blue Album Battle format that when we weigh things like opening track, when you factor in debut record, I think there's a strong argument that that's actually true. And you wrote the first notes.

Jason: Right? It's one of the, for sure, tight, you know, lead in songs on a debut album. I've, I know about, there's other good, there are other good ones, but that is a strong number.

Chris + Chris: Most bands don't come out as fully formed. You know, if we're being honest, it's very rare. You usually grow into yourself as a band and there are obviously exceptions like Led Zeppelin's an exception for sure. Right. But boy, Weezer was really one of the best at it.

Jason: Yeah, I think “My Name Is Jonas” like stylistically and artistically, it just leaves it all on the floor. It's like there is no- like with Weezer at that point, this, the purpose of “My Name Is Jonas” as a sort of side effect of it being such a fun and aggressive and interesting and kind of original song with that six, eight, you know, thing and the acoustic guitar and all the octave slides and stuff and the weird, cool lyrics and melody. It was like, we're going to leave it all on the floor. We'll be able to take the stage at any festival with any other type of band doing any other type of heavy music. We could play with Pearl Jam. We could play with Rage Against the Machine. We could play with any contemporary band that kills it live and that song proves it. And so here you go. Like we're not afraid, right? There was, there was a lot of swagger and confidence and, and Pat Wilson. That's him, you know, that's his, he, I just can't, I just came up with that little acoustic thing after work one day and he literally said, “STOP!!!” Because I was just going to keep on going into other chords and meandering like I do. And he was like, “Dude, just do those first three notes again, but reverse it and come back up, go down and then come back up, go down and come back up.” I was like, okay. And did it and he's like, “Great, can you hand me the guitar now?” And then two days later, that song is done because he and Rivers have finished it. And he really owned that and he designed that. So… Pat Wilson.

Chris + Chris: Yeah, seriously. He's done it again. Yeah. He's done it again. Did you guys have a sense that this was a set/album opener once you finally kind of got it on its feet in practice?

Jason: That was definitely above my pay grade.

Chris + Chris: Gotcha.

Jason: That kind of stuff like sequencing, you know, before we had a deal. Cause that was, it was like, I don't know.

Chris + Chris: I was thinking about saving this question for later, but I suppose I'll ask it now since it came up. In terms of sequencing, was that record sequenced after you had departed the band or did you have anything to do with sequencing, or?

Jason: Yeah, again, if it was sequenced before or after I left the band, it was above my pay grade. I think, you know, that was something that Rivers and Pat and Matt talked about more and probably once Ric was involved, that that conversation was going on between Rivers and, uh, Todd, the A&R guy and, and Ric, and then Pat, and Matt. And I was not privy to those conversations. If I was invited, I missed the subtlety of them asking me to consider. Right?

Chris + Chris: Fair enough. I'll tell you, whoever did it, they kind of nailed it. It's really one of the best sequenced records, too. The flow of the record is pretty immaculate.

Jason: I think some of it goes back to the early sets. That we would play in clubs. And I think that was probably in part, again, Rivers, you know, by design, not by accident, you know, kind of musical director-ship skillset.

Chris + Chris: For sure. And there's no better example of the sequencing than “No One Else” into “The World Has Turned and Left Me Here”.

Jason: Yeah. That's a really great transition. I mean, the key change is solid and the tempo, it kind of pulls you back a little bit. It's more introspective. You've got the acoustic guitar again. So there's this identity being kind of encapsulated or, or affirmed, you know, with the electric guitar, the big drums and the acoustic guitar riding along with it. So yeah, that it's a beautiful song.

Chris + Chris: Let's touch upon “No One Else”. And then I'd like to dig a little deeper into “The World Has Turned and Left Me Here”. They do feel like sister songs and they work that way on the record on a certain level. What do you remember about “No One Else”? I mean, really one of the first classic sounding Weezer songs.

Jason: That was a later song that Rivers came with. I want to say that song may have been written after the record deal with Geffen was solidified. And I remember there was one point where, and I think this is accurate. Somebody, I'm sure, will correct me if it's not, but the record deal was signed and Todd said to Rivers, now it's time to get to work. And Rivers is like, okay, yeah, what do you mean? It's like, it's time to write even better songs. And I mean it like I'm not fucking around. And there was this like, Oh, fuck, like, these guys are fucking serious. Like, you're not, now is not the time to rest now. Now that was all of just a rehearsal and an audition. Now you got the job. Now you have to come up with the goods. And by golly, he did.

Chris + Chris: Yeah, he sure did. “No One Else” is so interesting on a lyrical level because, you know, with a little bit more sensitivity of modern culture, that's a song that's been faced with some scrutiny, I think, by a lot of modern listeners. Was there any thought at the time like, wow, this is insensitive or insulting in some way?

Jason: No, it's a really good question. Yeah. In the age of Time’s Up and #MeToo, the song “No One Else” does not work. It's not a viable vehicle for the new normal, which is an important thing to stand up for, you know, and so misogyny and treating women as objects or less than, you know, equals. I don't think that's what the song. I don't think that that's where Rivers was coming from, per se, I think, emotionally, from what I know about him around this time. This is a guy who had had his heart broken, like by women who were, you know, no offense, Rivers, but manipulated him or were smarter than him or, you know, had their way with his tender and, you know, like small town sensibilities at the time. And I think he experienced a, an exposure to some worldly and more, um, maybe advanced techniques in, in dating than he had any idea-

Chris + Chris: What a way to put it.

Jason: Right. And so I think he was very sad and had been hurt. And you, you, if you listen to some of the songs in the fuzz canon, you'll hear that story there. And it's not the, he didn't just come up with it out of the blue. I think “No One Else” is a natural sort of “putting on his armor” response to having had his heart smashed on purpose by, by design, by people who he had freely and lovingly wanted to give it to without reservation.

Chris + Chris: Right. It's a tough world for the sensitive people, you know, the earnest sensitive people, especially the dating scene in LA in the early nineties. I can only imagine.

Jason: Right. Toxic masculinity is real and, toxic humanity is real and no one is immune. We all have to be, we have to try to show up as our best selves and we all screw up. We all hurt each other sometimes. And it's important to, you know, try to take responsibility for that and clean up our messes and apologize, you know, where, where it actually has caused harm and you could apologize without causing more harm. But I think that “No One Else” was a legitimate, mindset for him, you know, emotional encapsulation of a, of a, of what was going on for him. He wasn't trying to hurt anybody. He just didn't want to be hurt anymore himself, I think.

Chris + Chris: Right. It feels like an expression of insecurity if nothing else, but that's where being a bully or being possessive or whatever is born from, is insecurity and jealousy. And you can hear that in this song and the next song. And a lot of the, you know, the canon of the nineties, the great, the greatest Weezer songs kind of live in this space a little bit. -Absolutely.

Jason: Right. It's sort of the beginning of part of the beginning of the whole emo scene in a way.

Chris + Chris: And obviously, Weezer's widely considered, you know, progenitors of the genre for good reason and Pinkerton being one of the greatest examples of it ever. But it's here, it's here in “No One Else”, when I hear “No One Else”, I hear late nineties, pop punk. I hear saves the day. You know, I hear that style of music and it's being born in a way right here. Cause this doesn't really resemble alternative or punk that came before it's it's unique brand of that.

Jason: Yeah. I think Rivers really smartly wrote somewhere, you know, left of Green Day and right of Nirvana and, but was able to create his own identity as a writer and as a recording artist, band leader, singer, you know, with The Blue Album and, and “No One Else” is a very crafty song. Like if you take it apart as a guitar player from a guitar player's perspective and, and look at some of the double stops that are skipping strings and some of the more technical, you know, there there's like some, there's some classical guitar motifs that are written into that, that are very simply and elegantly executed and not difficult to play, but also very inventive and, and not just your germane root fifth power cord, box shape, you know, G C D it's, it's more interesting than that.

Chris + Chris: To speak more about the guitar in this song and the record as a whole, this is the first time we sort of hear a classic Rivers Cuomo, Weezer guitar solo, right? And something that really encapsulates the classic Weezer sound is the tone of the, his electric guitar. And from what I know, you had a pretty big impact on the Weezer sound and tone. And I was hoping you could talk a little bit more about that.

Jason: Yeah, we just got really lucky with, with Rivers’ guitar rig, you know, coming into, um, as Weezer got into playing the clubs in Los Angeles, we went to this guitar store on Ventura Boulevard called “Guitar, Guitar,” and they were famous for selling a lot of used gear. And there was a, um, an early, I guess, 80s Mesa 50 watt head that had like the kind of the, the Metallica sound, I think it was the two C plus mods, but it was prior to that nomenclature. So when the guy, Randall, at Mesa was like, making all these different cool designs to like stack more gain and more silky singing sustain for Carlos Santana or Larry Carlton, or, you know, these other sort of session players in LA or, you know, Frank Zappa types, right? Everybody wanted more distortion, but, but really just more sustained they wanted and, and more musical sustained, not more, you know, giant mosquito buzzing or, or washing distortion pedal, but just, (vocalizes), you know, you wanted that sound. And so we found one of these amps and it just really agreed with Rivers’ style of playing. First of all, because he is like, he has technical capacity that, you know, exceeds most people's understanding of the genre in general. And when he would play like Santana in the nightclubs and just do these really emotional, technically beautiful and very inspired note choice, you know, improvisations, like people like, you know, people would like stop, they'd be like, Whoa, I didn't expect a band like that to, for the guitar player to just whip out that kind of like, command of the instrument and tone too. So that sound had been developing for him for many more years before Weezer started. And he, and he had a serious command of the, of the instrument going into it. So it was really fun to watch him play.

Chris + Chris: No doubt. Let's move on to “The World Has Turned and Left Me Here”, which there's a lot of great arpeggios on Weezer's Blue Album. I think the acoustic arpeggio on “The World Has Turned and Left Me Here” is actually the most technically difficult to achieve. Is that a part that you would play?

Jason: I’d try. Yeah. I mean, I probably, I think one of the things that probably frustrated Rivers with me as a player was I, if I came up with a part, it was hard to get me to keep playing it consistently the same way every time. Cause I would just keep goofing around on it and just finding new ways to do it.

Chris + Chris: And that's kind of his thing. Rivers thing is like, get the part, play the part!

Jason: Get the part, play the part, make it iconic, make it stick. And that I think goes back to like Ace Frehley, right? Where you would go see a Kiss concert and it was like, if you were an Ace Frehley fan, which if you were a Kiss fan, you were just by default. But then if you were an Ace Frehley fan per se, and you bought his solo album, it was like, he's going to play the solo exactly like he does on the album AND better. Right. And I think that that really informs Rivers approach to guitar middle eights or embellishments or leads or whatever it is. And so I would be challenged in that environment as a player to come up with something inventive and interesting and memorable and technical because I'm up against this amazing dude named Rivers Cuomo, as far as coming up with ideas. And he would give me a chance. Okay, Jason, get out the acoustic guitar, come up with a part here. And again, “The World Has Turned and Left Me Here”, the way that was written, again, Pat Wilson, that's his music. And I think I was just sitting there with my acoustic guitar in the living room as he's playing it for me. And it's just, (vocalizing), I was like, Oh, cool. What are those chords? And he shows them to me and I'm playing them and I'm like, Oh, cool. And I just started goofing around and playing the arpeggios. And he was like, Oh, it's really cool. And I think for Pat, a lot of his guitar influence is informed by Johnny Marr.

Chris + Chris: Wow. That's so interesting. I've never thought about that.

Jason: And so if I did anything that was even remotely like something that Johnny Marr would be imaginable as doing on a guitar, he'd be like, Oh yeah, let's put that down. Let's get that.

Chris + Chris: Yeah. More arpeggios. That's great.

Jason: So yeah, that was, I think that's really where that part came from.

Chris + Chris: It's a killer part. And you can hear musically that this is not Rivers typical vocabulary, you know, like the chords that Wilson employs, you know, C major seven, E minor seven, A sus two, like that's not really Rivers stuff at this point. It has a different aura to it, I think, than some of Rivers solo material.

Jason: There's a really special part of, you know, of the early Weezer canon, specifically The Blue Album where there's this collaboration and this conversation going on between Rivers and Pat that I kind of described before in terms of them trading back and forth these demos. And it's a unique part of the repertoire of the band. And it's a very special part of the repertoire of the band for anybody who's a fan.

Chris + Chris: Now, here's a question that's kind of specific to this song, but maybe touch on a larger question as well. There's that lyrical refrain, “Do you believe what I sing now?” That's repeated over and over and on early versions, you know, it would just be in the vocal and the song would end with the acoustic arpeggio and out. And on the record, the guitar takes over the melody for really the last several repeats, which is really one of the most powerful parts of the song and on the entire record. Do you have a sense of where a choice like that would come in? Is that Ric Ocasek’s influence on arranging or just kind of living with the song for longer?

Jason: Yeah, great question. I may be wrong about this. Two part answer to your question. So the first part is that I think that Pat came up with that line, either melodically and or lyrically, and that Rivers helped him to finish it and agreed that it belonged there, in terms of writing it. I may be wrong about that. But I think I remember them doing that and working it out in rehearsal one day and us and we were saying, okay, we're going to add this part. And so you got to sing this at the end, because it's a gang vocal and everybody participates. And I was like, okay, how does it go? And then Pat is there helping Rivers show me. Okay, got it. And then I may be mistaken about this as well. But I'm imagining that I think that Rivers came up with doing going to the octave to like take it an octave higher, but on the guitar to echo that melody as an embellishment. And I think that was the kind of thing that that Ric was just like, Oh, yeah, this is going to be easy. He gets it, they get it. It's done. Just get it sounding, just get the feeling right. And this is going to work. I think was kind of his understanding there and support.

Chris + Chris: That makes perfect sense. And I would imagine a producer's dream is to have a band like Weezer and a songwriter like Rivers and a guitarist like Rivers, you know, in his hands, which is like, cool. I think the potential here is limitless. But I think these guys already have a sense of what to do.

Jason: Yes, and Pat Wilson, amazing drummer, like just clutch just so much feeling and so understated, like not all over the symbols, just the fundamentals. And then when it's time to shine, like no fear.

Chris + Chris: We talk about that all the time. We really do. He's one of the greatest drummers in modern rock and roll.

Jason: Absolutely.

Chris + Chris: So let's move on to the fourth track and arguably one of the most iconic Weezer songs in history, “Buddy Holly”.

Jason: Again, a post-record deal for sure. “Buddy Holly” was written after Geffen signed the band and it was in that now it's time to get to work ethos that it happened.

Chris + Chris: Do you remember hearing that demo? Because Rivers has since released that first version of “Buddy Holly” slower and with heavier synths and stuff. Do you remember your response? We're going to play that? What was your thought when you first heard that?

Jason: I was like, oh, this is going to KILL! It's going to be so good. He's just getting better. And I was so like, oh my God. And I remember for me personally, I was like, he's just running away with it. There's no way to catch up now, you know?

Chris + Chris: So on a non-musical level, do you think you could tell us a little bit about when Rivers made the transition to looking like “Buddy Holly”? Because all of his early photos in those band photos, he's got that long, you know, Slayer slash metal guitar hair. And then all of a sudden he makes this transition to big glasses and short, close cropped hair.

Jason: Yeah. I want to say it was when Kurt Cobain did that for the, was it “In Bloom” video?

Chris + Chris: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. They did the recreation of a sixties television show, called Ed Sullivan. Yeah.

Jason: I'm pretty sure that that was sort of like the, the moment and, and Rivers just did it and it was like, yeah, there's a new, we're creating an image for the band. And I think it was something that he and Matt were both sort of like, yeah, let's do this. Like they got inspired and I don't know exactly what the mindset was behind it other than it's not going to be a long hair band with an iron maiden t-shirt lead singer. It's going to be a short hair or a cropped hair band with glasses. And it was just more authentically who Rivers was becoming as a, you know, future, you know, musical icon. He just was designing that again. He was very intentional. It wasn't by accident. It was all like, I'm going to, he was creating himself as an artist.

Chris + Chris: It seems that way.

Jason: And it's an authentic thing. It's not like, Oh, I'm going to do this so I can get a record deal. It was, I'm, this is me and I need inside and I need to show the world this and show up this way because this is who I am inside is, is this so deeply that I can't deny it anymore. And I, and the time for being, you know, Ace Frehley in my life is over. Cause he had, you know, he was the lead guitar player in most of his bands up until fuzz, I think, right where he became the singer.

Chris + Chris: Right. And I mean, beyond obviously recognizing this as a quality song, right, “Buddy Holly”, it's like undeniably a quality song, whether one loves it or not. And you can never predict such a thing, but like, did you have a sense that that would be such an enduring song? And obviously the video had a lot to do with its initial success. Like that can't be understated, overstated. That can't be something stated, but the song is still loved to this day.

Jason: I mean, there are some interesting lyrics in that song that kind of like, I, again, I think veer into #MeToo. Sensitivity training, that wasn't available then, you know, that it was a different world then as far as like how, but I think, “your tongue is twisted. Your eyes are slit. You need a guardian.” That's a really interesting line. It's, there's a lot to unpack there for Rivers in terms of who he was dating and what was going on for him personally. And, and trying to find his way as a single man, you know, in this, in this world as a student primarily and as a singer in a rock band that was trying to get a record deal and then got one. And it was like, and you can hear it in the quality of the melody and in the quality of the lyrics, they go together so uniformly, it's like one thought, right? And the song is a celebration because it's on the heels of getting this record deal, this lifetime achievement award of like, Hey, if nothing ever happens to this band, we got a record deal with David Geffen company, DGC. Wow. That is a dream come true from, Hey, you could have written that song, Smells Like Teen Spirit to, okay. Got the same distribution network, promotions, vehicles, you know, uh, you know, video budget, all the same money, right? The same staff, the same team that was really special. And I think “Buddy Holly”, the way it was written, when it was written and what it was written about was like a, okay, I'm going to take off my jacket. I'm going to roll up my sleeves and I'm going to really show them what I'm going to show them that this is, this is going to have like, I'm, it's not going to not happen because of me. I think is that that's what Rivers is basically saying in writing “Buddy Holly”. At that point, he's saying, I'm taking, I'm showing up, I'm going to fully bring my A game. And he did. And it worked.

Chris + Chris: I mean, I would imagine that the record company was ecstatic when they heard this song.

Jason: I mean, you have to put that in perspective because you're talking about the guys who were like, why can't we have another Guns N’ Roses? Really? This new type of band Nirvana is going to- okay. They're just like, we don't know what, what do these kids want? We don't know anymore. Right. They're like, just give them the kids, find out what the kids want and give it to them. Cause we got to keep hitting these numbers or whatever, but back to the song back to “Buddy Holly”, you know, when you get to the bridge, And again, Pat Wilson with that backbeat there, there you have his collaborative spirit. A la, “My Name Is Jonas”, which again is a, just a muscular, powerful, tough riff, you know, power cord, kick drum intensity where they're rocking, they're kicking out the jams and maybe your grandma might dance to it. You know? And she said, Oh, I like that one about “Buddy Holly”.

Chris + Chris: It's got a little something for everyone and a lot of musical legitimacy. And I think that's what you hit on between Wilson's drumming and like one of the best twenty-second guitar solos anyone will ever hear. It's it's just, there's something there for everyone. -Yeah. Couldn't have said it better myself, Chris, which makes me wonder fifth song in the record, “Undone (The Sweater Song)” stone-cold Weezer classic. This was the first single from the record. One I'd like to speculate as to how this became the choice, because this is a record where literally nine of the 10 songs could have been on the radio and “Only In Dreams” is just eight minutes long. So that's the only reason it couldn't be on the radio because it's not Hey Jude as good as it is. Obviously let's talk about the song itself, but also that choice to like make this the introduction. Cause it's certainly the first Weezer song I ever heard. -Yeah. It's so different because you think if you are someone like me who comes into Weezer later in their life, long after they've had their sort of peak as a, as a rock band and the first song that I hear is “My Name Is Jonas”. That's the perfect introduction. But if you hear “Sweater Song” as a non Weezer fan and just a standard radio listener, that is pretty different.

Jason: Yeah. Uh, wow. “The Sweater Song” enigmatic, mysterious, uh, the origins of that song are still mysterious to me. It's kind of psychedelic rock kind of Pixies kind of totally unique. Nothing like nothing else.

Chris + Chris: It really is like nothing else, but then an all time great chorus.

Jason: Oh, just so fun. I mean, it's like a Shel Silverstein poem, such an enigmatic and fun little idea. And this double entendre as an unraveling sweater. And I'll soon be naked and calling it out, you know, lying on the floor. I come [undone] and it's just, it's such a fun cathartic lyric. And I think the performance of it still to this day really encapsulates. It's one of those songs where, and this isn't easy to do for songwriters. There's a few songwriters who can do it once in a while. It's not something that happens all the time, but you get to a song where the melody makes the lyric greater and the lyric makes the melody. Greater in a way that's unique. It's like a synchronicity or like a gestalt. [The] sum of the whole is greater than its individual parts. And so I think that “The Sweater Song” and it's fun, kind of meandering, harmless, weird, you know, and with the build up with Pat on the doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo just gets bigger and bigger and just keeps going off into this big, big, big arena rock space, right? Where they're just like, yeah, let's just, at one point we'll just start a build and it won't stop.

Chris + Chris: It will never end. And it could never end. They could drag that thing out forever. As long as Wilson's forearms can hold up. I think they could push it. I think one of my favorite bits, talk about an iconic music video, such a simple video, right? But my favorite part is when Pat gets up out of the drum set and starts playing the drum set while running around it in circles. It's just like, man, this is who this band is. This is just a bunch of goofballs being crazy. -And Matt's just sitting down, you know, whatever. Yeah.

Jason: Yeah. We used to hang out with the guys who became a jackass. Johnny Knoxville was a friend. We were all kind of coming up together, so to speak, in the Hollywood scene.

Chris + Chris: That'll be a whole another episode we can talk about. It's just you talking about that. Cause I can only imagine the stories, man.

Jason: There's some fun stuff. And I think that stylistically, Pat Wilson, his personal style, I think kind of informed some of that Tom foolery and that that shenanigan-ery that became branded as the Johnny Knoxville show or whatever that was. Those movies and stuff. And so, yeah, him running around the drum kit and playing it with his hands like this and the dogs. And clearly they're not pantomiming correctly. They don't know what to do. And they're like, yeah, let's just, I don't know what the time, cause I wasn't in the band anymore, but I would imagine that they were probably so scared that nothing was going to happen that they just-. Cause there was a lot of resignation in Weezer in the early years of like, yeah, but like, yeah, we got a record deal, but you know, it'll never happen. Like we'll, we'll be lucky to sell 20,000 albums. So this is, you know, because, and they were being realistic because they had seen time and time again, as I described, like you would, these bands that were pretty good, would get these massive record deals, much bigger than what Weezer got. And they show up, you know, a year later and be playing in the same club and the same slot and nothing had happened. They had made the video and it got played one time at the end of 120 minutes or nothing and no radio ads. And then they broke up. And so I think that maybe the just sheer, like hilarity of it was not lost on Pat and Rivers and Matt. I think Brian is more of like a bonafide, like born to be a rock star kind of a guy. You can see that in his performance in “Undone”, right. Jumping and doing the Pete Townsend stuff. He's like, I'm he's, he's earning his money.

Chris + Chris: He shaved his eyebrows, you know, he went all in on the crazy rock star thing. Yeah.

Jason: Brian is no- he does not play. He, he's serious, he's a professional.

Chris + Chris: So that brings us to “Surf Wax America”. And what a great way to kick off the side B so to speak. This is one of my favorite songs on the record. And I think some of Wilson's best drumming, period, on the record. -And a co-writer.

Jason: Yeah. Another golden Pat Wilson moment, “Surf Wax America”, you know, the, the heavy handedness of his left hand on the snare is just iconic. Like that's, you know, him that do got to got to like just this straight, almost Polka, but with just enough attitude to make it not sound like a drum machine. Right. It's a person playing that, and-

Chris + Chris: He always has swing. He always has humanity in his plank, even when it's perfectly metronomically correct. It's still a human playing it undeniably.

Jason: Yes. And this was one of those songs that I think was again, informed by the sort of the magic of “My Name Is Jonas” and having the, the power of an uptempo number. And because we had been playing in club, like, you've probably all heard of the band Wax, right? Joe Sib, he's a comedian now. He's really funny guy. Just check him out. He was a singer of Wax and wax had gotten a record deal prior to Weezer. And, and we had, we were kind of choking on their, their, their exhaust a little bit choking on their dust. And these were guys who, you know, like looking at it now objectively like good musicians, decent songwriting, you know, Joe will even say himself, like not the strongest singer, but an amazing front man, great personality, but just like more of a punk rock thing. And then, and Weezer was a little bit more like thought out and crafted as far as songwriting. I think no, no offense meant here, just, you know, less spontaneous, more time put into it, I think. But wax hit the ground running. They had their record out, they were on 120 minutes. They did this really iconic video also with Spike Jonze who did the, the “The Sweater Song” video and a few others. I think he did “Buddy Holly” as well. Yeah. He's, he's an amazing (incomprehensible), but in any case, “Surf Wax America” was Pat laying it down, like let's show them how it's done as far as a fast song. And, and Rivers really took that and ran with it as far as like the lyrics. And, I don't know if what was going on with Wax as a working band and what was going on with Weezer as a still arguably amateur and not signed unsigned band at least informed the lyrics or not. I don't really know what was going on with there with Rivers, but you can kind of see there's a class distinction. You take your car, I'll take my board. And when you're out of fuel, I'm still afloat. I don't know who he's talking about there.

Chris + Chris: Did you know Rivers to be a surfer?

Jason: You know, I've been boogie boarding with Rivers a couple times in my life. It's really, you know, something we'd like to do together every once in a while, every blue moon. And he loves it. And he, he loves the ocean. That's why, you know, I mentioned that in Perfect Dream in my lyrics, right. I sing a song about him playing in the ocean out West with his kids or something like that. So he's, you know, he loves the water. He loves to get out there and do that. And it's not like, you know, he's not like out there with the gear and like every weekend and it's like, you know, but yeah, he takes a lot of pleasure in that. I think. And it's fun.

Chris + Chris: I just figured I'd ask cause I wasn't sure if he was actually a surfer or if he was truly just trying to emulate the beach boys or something like that.

Jason: I think it was a little bit of life imitating art. I think he kind of was like, you know what, I'm going to go see what this whole, I mean, Southern California, we're closer to the ocean than in Hollywood. Now that we live in West LA, he went to Santa Monica College and I think he just explored his, his world and kind of went and found what worked as a Southern Californian. And I think it makes perfect sense. He still lives there. And I think he walks, he walks the walk.

Chris + Chris: Right on. -I would love to talk about the bridge of this song. What are your memories of that part?

Jason: That- I was like, wow, he's really gonna, he's making this so it won't be a, a radio single.

Chris + Chris: Right. Cause people think they lost signal or something. It gets so quiet.

Jason: And I think it was really gutsy. I think it was really a way to, I don't know if this was intended or not, but I think it kind of steered people towards the songs that were set up to be radio singles more effectively, whether intended or not. And I think it was a beautiful artistic statement. I really enjoyed like that breakdown into something on the, on the B sides of Pet Sounds like, Hey, we're, this is like, for me, it was something off of like, Abbey Road.

Chris + Chris: Yeah. Like “Because” with a tight vocal harmony or something like that. Was that a song you guys would play in the clubs? I'm wondering how like a talkative club crowd on a Monday night, you know, would respond to a part like this in the song.

Jason: Yeah. It was awkward.

Chris + Chris: I think so. Cause like, who are we? Like, no one knows us.

Jason: You'd stop, you'd like turn on, you know, okay, let me turn the guitar off and start singing really quietly while Matt just plays two notes. And you'd hear everybody talking about, When are we going to get on stage?” And, “Did you tune the guitar?” “Did you, did you bring the fly?” Cause everybody there at the show is in another band. Except for Mykel and Carli.

Chris + Chris: Right. I would love to talk about them some more. I want to talk about some of the songs that didn't make the record actually, once we wrap up, because I, I would love to get your insight into those. And I'm so interested in, in Mykel and Carli and their role in, in the Weezer experience and history, but we get to get into a heavy hitter right now. “Say It Ain't So”. Stone-cold classic, my favorite song on the record, arguably the best Weezer song ever, arguably one of the best songs of the nineties. -Easy. -Talk to me. Rivers shows up at practice. Here's my new song. Gives you a tape, whatever. Here's the new song.

Jason: Yeah, no, it changed, it literally changed my life. The first time I heard it, I was like. Like, I remember looking at him and regarding him in a completely new light and realizing that I was going to literally, you know, follow this guy, like a disciple of a, you know, kind of a, he took it, he took on a messianic air, not in, not in his outward appearance or how he was presenting himself to the world. But to me personally, I was like, Oh my fucking God, he's a genius. This is awesome. I'm so excited. I'm so proud to know this person and to be in a band with him and to be able to play his songs. This is a beautiful song. Like the sentiment is just so real. And it really spoke to me personally, in terms of my relationship with my stepfather, who's still, he was my stepfather. He's been my stepfather since I was 13 and he's still with my mom and they, you know, and he had his, he's had his stuff with, you know, substance and [I] had to grow up around that. And so I think it was a, it was just this archetypal and beautiful and is an archetypal and beautiful love song for a stepfather from a stepson. I mean that, wow, what a magical- that's so original.

Chris + Chris: It's a song that's so specific in its detail, but sometimes those are the most universal songs because everyone has their equivalent of this experience you're describing. It may not be the exact same experience, but I go, wow, that's like that time that I. Versus talking in generalities, trying to be universal where people go, I don't relate to that at all. Like that's just words, you know, but there's something very specific about you feel the air of an afternoon at home, messing around, finding a, you know, a bottle of beer and having it send you on this sort of psychological journey.

Jason: Yeah. It's, it's as authentic as songs get about love. It really is.

Chris + Chris: Yeah. What do you think, Chris? Do you like “Say It Ain't So”? -It's okay. No, I'm just kidding. I still remember the first time I heard it. It was just so powerful. I couldn't even believe that I hadn't heard of the band before. Or I was like, Oh, these are the, cause being significantly younger and too young to know this music when it first came out, my first experience into Weezer was “Island in the Sun”. And I was like, these are the guys who did “Island in the Sun”? This is such a better band.

Jason: Yeah. That's a, it's a magical song and I'm like, I play it, you know, I pretty much every show I play, I whip out and it's fun because my stepson has been playing with me. So that's-

Chris + Chris: That's amazing. -Woah, you're the stepfather. -That's fucking meta man. -Full circle. I love it. Chris talks about it too. Whenever he plays gigs. I know you've said it doesn't matter what I played before it at like for, you know, 10 songs, 15, 20 songs deep into the set. You play that intro and everyone immediately turns and looks at you and they're like. -YEAH! -Yeah. -No one's unhappy to hear that song ever. That's my experience playing it live for the last 15 years in bars, you know?

Jason: It's a sing along favorite.

Chris + Chris: And yet super personal and heavy. It's like a rare thing to pull off. It's amazing. -It really is, yeah. And another great video and such as just a raw, simple video. You can really see Rivers’ emotion. Yeah. It's very intimate that video. Anyway, on a musical level, that proto reggae upbeat guitar thing, which I presume was your part. Where did that come from? Where did that feel come from? Cause that is not like an obvious choice. -No. And it's unlike anything else on the record. -Yeah.

Jason: That was Rivers. Yeah. He said, here, your part. It came fully formed. The song was pretty much, there were a couple tweaks. Like I think I asked him to like, Hey, flip this lyric to that. Move this here, move that like a couple suggestions were made that stuck, but it was for the most part it as you hear it on the record now.

Chris + Chris: It's cool that you mentioned that. I listened to an early demo version of this and it's clear that you both are still exploring the guitar part. I mean, it's funny cause Blue Album is just one of those records for us and for, I think a large swath of a certain population that you just know every note and you know, every beat it falls on. So hearing a demo version of it from like the real demo?

Jason: You know, I haven't listened to that demo in a number of years, so I wouldn't want to skew your, your perspective of comparing it.

Chris + Chris: It was, it was, it was cool to hear. It was actually very lively and it almost like reinvented the song in my mind. It was like, but you can hear searching for the right notes or the right approach. I would say more than anything at most, the notes were all good. It was more just, what should this song be? What's cool is that the high bends are there in the choruses, but they're up an octave, but still they're only in the last two choruses or not in the first. And I love that choice. Pretty sophisticated for a young band to say, no, no, no, let's give us somewhere to go. If we give it all in the first chorus, it lessens the impact of chorus two and three.

Jason: Yeah. These are like, you know, conversations that have probably like, you know, to be a fly on the wall between Ric and Rivers on the phone before the band left for New York and listening to the demos versus getting ready to, you know, and then, and of course Ric wanting it to all be, you know, and Rivers also very much wanting it all to be very representable live, like the album and the band to be able to sound the same, which I think really speaks to, again, the Kiss, right? The four piece band.

Chris + Chris: Because I think their most famous record really besides Destroyer is Kiss Alive, you know, just truly four guys playing.

Jason: Right. There might be some weird studio trickery going on here and there in the mix part of it, maybe a couple overdubs, but but I think for those higher octave bends in this, in the chorus of “Say It Ain’t So” on the demo, I think that he may have actually overdubbed. To just add, to just kind of seal the deal on that as a guitar, more as a guitar player at that point than a lead singer. So maybe that kind of informs the transmutation or the transformation of Rivers as in his identity as a lead guitar player and band leader to a lead singer songwriter and lead guitar player and musical director. And so taking on that deeper responsibility as the leader of the band, you know, singer as well.

Chris + Chris: One other aspect I took from that too, is that while the guitars are still searching a little bit, Matt Sharp's bassline is there. It's exactly the bassline that you hear on the record, even in that early stage. Could you talk a little bit about Matt Sharp, the bass player? I think that gets overlooked a little bit. I think Matt Sharp, singer of The Rentals, is how we mostly perceive him now, but talk about his role as the bass player in the band.

Jason: Sure. Matt was very solid bass player. I mean, you know, he had really worked at developing a personal musical style taste execution that was, I think, largely informed by Kim Deal.

Chris + Chris: Wow. That makes sense. -Yeah. -High singing and bass playing.

Jason: Yeah. So I think and Rivers and he really kind of created that together. That was a collaboration that I think Matt and Rivers really, you know, where you had the Wilson-Cuomo songs like “Surf Wax [America]”, “The World Has Turned [and Left Me Here”, and “My Name Is Jonas”. The collaboration between Matt and Rivers was more along the lines of, we're going to stand out of the front of the stage together and you're going to sing these parts and play it like this and it's going to be like this. And you have to remember that, again, to reference Fuzz, there was a female bass player, Scotty, and it was a three piece. And so not that Matt should sound like a girl, per se, but that I think was part of the sonic integrity of that sort of part of that quadrant, if you will, the bass player quadrant of the band. And I think it's all over The Blue Album, right?

Chris + Chris: Most definitely. It's one of the defining characteristics, those falsetto octave doublings that he does, particularly on “Say It Ain't So”, “Sweater Song”, like as iconic maybe as any guitar progression or guitar solo.

Jason: And in a way, it's like there's a fan boy singing along an octave high. And it kind of foreshadows all the girls in the audience singing along in that register as well. It kind of leads to the logical conclusion psychologically. I don't know if that was the intent, but it works.

Chris + Chris: Absolutely. Do you want to talk to Jason Cropper anymore about “Say It Ain't So”? Like, this is what we're doing right now, by the way, Chris.

Jason: We can stop the call if you guys are bored. I don't…

Chris + Chris: It's not lost on us that this is really cool. -Yeah. If you had told us a, you know, two years ago when we first started recording a podcast in Chris's upstairs bedroom in this tiny little home studio that we would be talking to a founding member of the band that we started a show about, I would have said, you're crazy. There's no way.

Jason: That's so cool. The fact that you guys have a show that is about a band that I was a member of and you just keep doing it, it's not lost on me either. I mean, it goes both ways. Like I have to pinch myself when people are like, oh, you're that guy who played in Weezer. And I'm like, wow, they fucking know. So weird. Yeah. I'm like, yeah. And I look at them and they look at me and they're like, and I don't know what they're thinking. Oh, he must be such a fucking egomaniac or whatever. No, I'm actually, I'm just a fan of the band like you. I just happened to have been there the day it started and a few months before. So, it was cool. And people will troll me and say, “Oh, he was barely in the band.” And, “Rivers said that he was acting irresponsibly.” And you know, and I'm like, “Yeah, so? I was there. It was fucking cool.”

Chris + Chris: Perfect. Perfectly said. I was gonna say. -”I was there, it was fucking cool, and you weren't.” -Yeah. “So I may not be an egomaniac, but fuck you.” -That's the pull quote from this interview. Actually, I've got to put that. That's the artwork. -Seriously. It's perfect.

Jason: Oh God.

Chris + Chris: No, never. But that's so funny. -And then the quote from Jason The Great. -Yeah Jason “The Great” Cropper.

Jason: Out come the memes and the bullying knives.

Chris + Chris: That's not our style. We really like joking around and we, but we are like so tender with the creative process. About the creative process and about art. Like, yeah, we don't have that in us.

Jason: That's cool that you guys really are interested in the art and the creativity of it. I think it, it's so fun to make records. It's so fun. If you know, for anybody who can hear the sound of my voice now and, you know, or might read this transcript, if you feel the desire to make music and to record it and to share it, there has never been a better time. There may never be, you know, like this whole pandemic thing and the, the amount of, you know, just like in- inside time that people are going to have to be creative and to actually express what their hearts came here to this planet, to, to desire, to express, and to rediscover that after having to grow up and forget why you were born and then have to rediscover it or whatever your story is about the nature of existence. And then be able to sing about that and to play an instrument and to arrange a song, like with the help of a computer to do most of it for you. Like, are you kidding me? You know, how much we wished as kids, we had like a Universal Audio Apollo and logic or just even garage band or something.

Chris + Chris: Hey, how do you know my rig? I'm literally, that's what we're using right now.

Jason: Right, I mean, I love this stuff so much. It's what I do for my job. Selling the gear for Vintage King. I, you know, I love it. I just, there's nothing I'd rather do than help people create a message in the form of songs and music and, and media like that. It's just, there's something purely magical about that type of communication.

Chris + Chris: So my question for you is how much do you relate to the subject material of this song? Did you find yourself in a, as a isolated, introverted kid playing D and D or board games or video games or how much of this is Rivers and how much of it is you?

Jason: Oh, it's definitely him. I mean, this is another, I think post record deal song that would showed up completely formed and done lyrically musically. I think he even played the drums on the demo in this one. But it definitely, I mean, we were, we were friends before we were in a band together in no small part because we were both Dungeons and Dragons kids, right? Middle school, you know, fifth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade. And then it starts to get like, Oh gosh, I, I don't think I'm going to get in, you know, I'm not going to be able to meet girls if I keep hanging out with these Dungeons and Dragons kids in the library or the cafeteria at lunch, right? And, and, oh, but that was definitely me. And so it really spoke to me. I just loved it. And, you know, I remember when we went to New York to make the record, I brought and forced everybody to play Dungeons and Dragons after we would finish some sessions or like on a weekend day. And Karl was the dungeon master.

Chris + Chris: Oh, that was my next question.

Jason: Yeah. And Matt and Pat like indulged us and didn't like it, but Rivers and I were excited to do it. And it was one of the, I think one of the last things that we did while I was still in the band that was like, you know, like my, he was trying to do team building stuff that I wasn't able to show up for because of my personal life at the time. And I was trying to do team building stuff that he was definitely showing up for because he was good. He was good that way, you know?

Chris + Chris: And was Ric Ocasek good?

Jason: Ric Ocasek. I don't think he played Dungeons and Dragons.

Chris + Chris: Aw, what?! -I imagine him as a level 13 elf. -He's a drow.

Jason: Definitely shows up as a drow, like a, like a, a good drow though.

Chris + Chris: Yeah. Kind drow. -Yeah. Right. But “In the Garage”, I mean, a classic in a very personal song in a completely different way than “Say It Ain't So” is personal.

Jason: I think the lyric, “all my songs are waiting there for me.” It's just so poignant and so touching and really a real thing where it was like, again, you know, a respite from a weary world being art and being ones in this case songs and how, you know, Rivers said to me at one point, as I was getting more inspired by his songwriting and wanting to write more songs of my own, I remember at one point he said to me, he had this cassette case, right? With all the little slots, right? And it was organized. And this was his, cause he had several, some for music that he would listen to, but more importantly, his songs that he had written his projects that he was working on or had finished. And it was his entire discography, his entire history and very fine, you know, like Dungeons and Dragons style handwriting on the cassette, J cards of what this was, when it was, what order, who worked on it. It's a, and just on a Maxell blank cassette, but like, you know, album artwork that he had basically liner notes that he had created for these demos and his projects. And this is from pre-Weezer and Weezer. And I remember at one point, he said to me something along the lines of, “You have to respect your music. You have to take care of it and keep it organized. You have to treat it appropriately so that it will be there for you.” And that song really encapsulates it. It really, again, you know, as one of those where the Gestalt effect where the melody and the lyric both serve a higher purpose and the transmission of the feeling of the song and how to help someone else who's a listener to receive and have that feeling and that sent and share that sentiment and that message. And I think that's one thing that Rivers really, you know, he really gets, he really embodies that and he may need like time alone or not be able to like, really like interface with person after person after person, you know, his energy might get sucked up in that a little bit. And he has more of an introverted nature, I think, which is a beautiful thing. And no, you know, judgment against that. I think I'm much more of an extrovert by comparison, but to be able to communicate with people in this way, via a song, and have them be able to really know the mind of the writer, and the heart of the writer, and to be able to not just empathically relate, but to be able to just actually have an authentic feeling as well as a listener. That song does that. Full stop.

Chris + Chris: Beautifully said. Let's move on. -I mean, come on. We can't say anything halfway intelligent after that or halfway sincere or halfway anything, maybe quarter way, but not halfway.

Jason: You guys are so kind to indulge me in this stuff. This is fun. I, it's nice to process all these blues song albums one at a time. I'm sorry. I'm not talking about like the technical recording part of it as much.

Chris + Chris: It's all so important. Like the musicality is important to music fans, but I think there are so many music fans who don't play music or know anything musically about theory or recording or gear or anything like that. It's the human aspect. It's the humanity that people respond to. And I think The Blue Album is such a human record. So to hear from you and tell these human stories, whether it's you personally or understanding these other guys in the group, it's just remarkable to for people to get inside your head and inside their head vicariously through you. So I think that's the most important thing, man.

Jason: I'm a big fan of The Blue Album. I'll say that much.

Chris + Chris: Really? Hadn't noticed. -I'm a big fan of this song. I think this is a little bit of an overlooked song. -“Holiday”, one of the most elaborate compositions on the whole record, the second to last track. -It really is, yeah. -A nice lightning of the mood. This is one of those great sequential choices. I think to put this here between some heavy hitters, right? “Only In Dreams” is right around the corner, but “Holiday” just offering a little breath of fresh air. And boy, what an arrangement, you know, what do you remember about learning this song?

Jason: Again, another post David Geffen company record deal written and demoed song. I think Rivers again play the drums on that original demo and the breakdown. That's so genius. And it sort of I think it falls again under that template that “Surf Wax America” used, right? And for Rivers, I think that was like a way to kind of showcase his- the range of the band live. Some dynamics. And it tells us it's part of the story. It tells the story of, you know, I mean, it's such a beautiful song. So insistent and so urgent. And so there's so much pathos in that refrain. Again, it was just another one of these like. Holy shit, he's done it again, like another like complete thought, like start to finish, it's ready to go like, cool, we're going to make a great record. Very confidence building.

Chris + Chris: I would think so. And some great guitar work throughout this one as well from that intro lick. Just it's just killer. And honestly, the vocal arranging between the bridge and just the outro with the overlapped, you know, kind of verse and chorus all working together there. That's the type of stuff that actually made me even 10 year old me go, oh, I love these guys because they sound like the Beatles.

Jason: The craft and the counterpoint there in that refrain that you're talking about with the overlap. He's just really taking ownership at that point in terms of what's happened, what was happening, you know, 1993, spring of 1993, coming into summer. And it was just an extremely productive time for Rivers Cuomo, lead singer, songwriter, bandleader, Weezer, David Geffen Corporation, headed to New York, Ric Ocasek. “Let's have some more winners, Rivers,” says Todd. And he's like, bang, bang over under promise and over deliver. Is what he's doing there. And it's really special. And the record is beautiful for that song. And that song, I think kind of informs “Island in the Sun” in some ways.

Chris + Chris: For sure. They're like sister songs, but like “Holiday” is like the bad ass equivalent. -Oh, way better. -Yeah. Prototype. Yeah.

Jason: Right.

Chris + Chris: Yeah. How much, how often is it that the prototype exceeds the finished product?

Jason: Well, I don't know. “Island in the Sun” is a big song.

Chris + Chris: That's a big song. That's still their most listened to song. If you look at Spotify streams, “Island in the Sun” is the one. Do you have a guess of what number two is? Like what song of Blue Album do you think has endured the most?

Jason: “My Name Is Jonas”?

Chris + Chris: Nope. I wish it were.

Jason: Yeah. Right. Well, I see statement stuff from time to time and I'm like, wow, that Blue Album, man. What is the number one?

Chris + Chris: So this is actually, yes. Second to “Island in the Sun” of all streaming Weezer songs and maybe “Africa” may be sneaking its way into this mix, but it's actually “Say It Ain't So”. Which I love because that was the third single and it was released like a year after the first two, but it's endured more and it speaks to the depth of the song. I think.

Jason: “Only in Dreams” is such a beautiful song. When he showed that to us at the time, “Only in Dreams”, I don't remember which one came first, “Say It Ain't So” or “Only in Dreams”, but it was one of those moments where you were like, oh my God, my mom is going to really like my band. You know what I mean? Like this is really a beautiful song. This is so lovely. And it is! Like if you want to just calm down and like lower your blood pressure and like sigh and like feel like a melancholy well-being. Oh, put on “Only in Dreams”, man.

Chris + Chris: It's so funny. Such a dissonant, odd chord shape in that picked guitar part can sound so good. -Not dissimilar to “Sweater Song” in a way too, right? In the way it uses that C and B and B flat.

Jason: Yeah. There's this. What is this chord? It's like a D, uh…

Chris + Chris: It's a D7. Yeah.

Jason: But then he brings the what is it? A C down to a B there. And then plays the open B also. And then the electric guitar that cruises over that is just so poignant. And that was a happy- that tone of that guitar was a happy accident from the Japanese Strat that I had heavily modified at, like a you know, that was my guitar that he ended up playing for the bulk of The Blue Album, besides whatever guitars Ric handed him to, “Do the lead for this song with my SG,” or “Do the lead for the song with my Paul Reed Smith or Les Paul,” or whatever he was using here and there. But the way that sound came about was on the neck pickup of the Strat. There was a DiMarzio brand humbucker from hell, which had a neck pickup tone from a Stratocaster, but in a humbucker, right. This is before you could get like a hum canceling single coil. So we wanted a single coil sound for the neck because Pat was really in love with, you know, like Hendrix tones a la Rage Against the Machine tones where the telly on the neck- and it's just this big fat like, kind of Zeppelin riff, but neck pickup, single coil. And so we got one of those pickups and put it in that guitar, and this is before Weezer was a glimmer in any of our eyes. That guitar was being modified and built. It's just like a project it's like let's keep modifying it let's just keep you know add a new neck, add a new nut, add a new, what, you know, saddles add a new pickup. Change it, paint it, put a splitter in. And so we put a push/pull pot on the volume knob, and that was- the pull function would split that humbucker in the neck so that it went from a low output humbucker that was designed to sound like a single coil, to almost no output. And so it had this very chimey, thin, reedy, almost like am radio, but still chiming, single coil sound very musical, very- just a beautiful tone that you only really- I mean that's a unique guitar sound. You have to admit. That “Only In Dreams” intro, electric guitar it's twangy.

Chris + Chris: Very twangy. It's the only guitar that sounds like it on the record. I mean, really.

Jason: And the magic of the part that he's playing there on the electric guitar at the beginning of that song, and the bass line is so magnificent. And all that came pretty much fully formed. And the lyrics are just classic Rivers in his, “I'm a student, the dream may be dying. I don't know if I can keep doing this. I'm-” you know? “I don't know which way to go.” Like, everything I wanted to do stylistically is so passe now, and discovering that kind of heartbreak and that kind of having to grow up a little bit, and face reality, you know? That and, and in the context of a relationship again, right? That's- “Only In Dreams is such a poignant, beautiful note.

Chris + Chris: You've talked in the past about working on- kind of the post second chorus guitar. The whole guitar instrumental section, with Rivers, there at the studio. What is that process like? You guys are just kind of ping ponging ideas back and forth? Is it figuring out how to how to harmonize a pre-existing line? Can you talk us through that a little bit?

Jason: Yeah, well, first of all, I don't know if my parts that I played into the tape machine were recorded over, or replaced by someone else, and I don't think we ever played that song the same way twice while I was in the band. So, disclaimer here, right? But-

Chris + Chris: But even just to get a sense of how you and Rivers would would work together, collaborate on a interlocking, interweaving guitar part like this, or Jonas in the bridge, even.

Jason: You know, it was from, what I really remember about doing it live on, you know, small stages, in and around Los Angeles, and doing it in the studio. I think I played on it, on the demo. And I certainly remember playing it in rehearse pre-production rehearsals, both at cole rehearsal then at S.A.R., in New York, with Ric present. And then again on the record, together. It was something that we improvised regularly and it was meant to be different every time. And I don't know- like, when was the last time they played that song live?

Chris + Chris: It doesn't emerge often, I'll say that.

Jason: Because it's probably like, “Oh do we play it just like the record? And who can remember all that?

Chris + Chris: Not them at this point that's for sure. -No way.

Jason: Right? So, yeah. It was, it was meant to be a section where we would stretch out and kind of become a jam band. There was an- the only jam band really before that was the Grateful Dead and Blues Traveler and Phish was just getting, you know, Dave Matthews wasn't even a thing then.

Chris + Chris: Yeah it was really the next year that they broke yeah with, what would you say in those songs? Yeah, no, that's a good point. I mean, is that who you have in mind here? I mean, is Sonic Youth coming to mind as well with these guitar explorations? Was that a band that was on your radar? Obviously label mates at this point which is kind of cool.

Jason: I think honestly it was more informed by the sort of filtering the idea of like octave slide, you know sort, of collaborative “fly by the seat of the pants”, like, y’know “if we fall there's no net but if we nail it it's going to be magical”

Chris + Chris: Absolutely.

Jason: Which I think was informed by Joey Santiago honestly-

Chris + Chris: Cool, yeah Pixies, yeah

Jason: And Billy Corgan, Gish.

Chris + Chris: I can hear similarities in tone and approach between those two for sure, and Gish of course is the proto Nevermind sound by Butch Vig as well, that's where you kind of got that sound going.

Jason: mm-hmm, and then Rivers, I think kind of dumbing down his “super chops” in the context of, “well, if I can only play one note at a time, and I'll use these two fingers, it can get more melodic and I can play something that I would sing if I could reach into that range and do it, but it'll be on the guitar-” And, you know, and maybe that's informed by Carlos Santana a little better, maybe that's informed by, y’know, some of the like, jazz players.

Chris + Chris: Yeah, George Benson or West Montgomery, these guys who used a lot- Yeah.

Jason: I think- Yeah, it's more- It's kind of going back to… Cuz, y’know Rivers I think went to Berkeley, not like full-on student but like, y’know Rivers is a- He's a hard-working academic, when he wants to learn how to do something he really digs in for mastery and so I think that those type of guitar techniques, like those octave slides, are informed in a small part by his learning about those play- those types of players.

Chris + Chris: Could you talk about, and this is probably last thing on Only In Dreams, and this has been great, and what a great in-depth discussion, I think- I think the listeners are going to really love this, cuz I know I am, and I would listen to the show, even if I wasn't on it, if Jason Cropper was on it! -Uh, yeah. -Uh, yeah!

Jason: Chris, I would too!

Chris + Chris: I'm happy to hear that! Uhm, tracking live to tape, in the studio, we never really addressed kind of the recording approach that Ocasek took with you, so I'd love to hear about that, and also- I mean, doing that on an eight minute song… Are there any edits or are you kind of just seeing it through? Because, boy is there a release in the last- y’know 50 seconds or so of this song, where Wilson is still playing as hard and recklessly and brutally as ever, you don't get a sense that he's like, “Don't fuck up.” You get a sense that he's like, “Elevate.” And that's hard to do in a studio, you know, you've spent enough time in studios, can you talk about the tracking of this? To the best of your memory or maybe just a general kind of feeling about tracking that record, basic tracks.

Jason: Yeah I- I know that, when we set up in the main room downstairs at Electric Lady to get the drums it was, y’know like- And I think Ric kind of gave us a disclaimer like “Hey, we're gonna get the drums, like, don't worry about anything else, like if you do something- Like, we'll set up your tone in- In the individual room-” Rivers’ guitar cabinet was in the- The lounge for studio A, mine was in a little, like, air lock back behind the drum room that was like a fire exit or a loading area, and I think Matt's cabinet- I don't know if he used like a B-15 or his SVT or what, but that was like around the other side of the- Of where the drums were facing- Drums were facing the- The control room glass, there's a big mural that, if you look at that room, and there's photos of it-

Chris + Chris: I've seen that.

Jason: And so Pat was facing outwards from the mural towards the control room glass, and- But it was really all about, y’know, those big room mics, and the close mics, and Pat's performance, and primarily, it was all to a click, though I think with that song they may have like, turned off the click as we get into, kind of the more freeform part of it, and it's like “Okay here's where you're going to go off the grid, or whatever you want to call it back then, and just play.” And I know that we put in a lot of time to get the performance to the point where, both Pat and Rivers were looking at each other and going like “Yeah, that's it, that's the- Pick that one, or- Or cut this section and put it onto that one”.

Chris + Chris: So, there would be comping?

Jason: I'm pretty sure there was some tape splicing that was done by Chris Shaw, he was really good at that from what I remember, and I remember him doing it a few times, and he would put the- It was, y’know, it's a beautiful art form, if you're not familiar, in those big studios you have the big speakers, right? And the big speakers are not really for listening to the music loud, they’re for when the engineer, who's going to splice the tape, has to go over into the tape room, he flicks on the big speakers, because what he's going to do, he's going to find the kick drum transient: “WOOF, WOO, WOO” across those big speakers.

Chris + Chris: Oh, that's fascinating.

Jason: Cuz he's going to cut it in the same spot right before the kick drum, on the one that we're exiting, that take we're exiting at, y’know, “Kick drum X Number two”, y’know, measure whatever beat and whatever, and then he's going to take the other tape, of the other, y’know, he's going to find that same exact spot in the song, right at that kick drum, and cut right before it, so that he slides it right in, and flips the tape over, tapes it with the other tape, flips it back, listens to it, “Does it sound the same on the big speakers?”, in another room! He's not in, and somebody's in there going “I think it's right…”

Chris + Chris: This is amazing.

Jason: Right? Like “No that's not- Okay yeah that's it!” right?

Chris + Chris: And then what happens if you fuck it up?

Jason: Well, you- You flip it over where you cut it and taped it, and you peel off the tape, and you take the old one, that you labeled correctly, and you put it back on there, and you re-tape what you cut, that's your undo!

Chris + Chris: Isn’t that fascinating? God, is it easy now, are you- You record digitally now? Like the record that you've been working on?

Jason: Yeah, yeah, Proton.

Chris + Chris: And you used to work at Ocean Way Studio, is that right?

Jason: Yeah, uhm, funny Weezer meta story: Brian was a runner at Ocean Way before he got the call to go join[Weezer, and, that was ‘93 of course, and then four years later in ‘97, I got off the road with, y’know, Chopper One, and had, y’know, no money, no place to live, and no job, and, y’know, found myself kind of scrambling to, y’know, put a home back together for my wife and daughter at the time, and I was doing cartage for a company called M.E.T.S, Musical Equipment Transportation Services, which was probably a front for like, a money laundering operation for a, y’know, a drug company in Florida or so, y’know some cart- Early cartel business, but I was driving around, amongst other artists, the band Tonic, and so I would drop their stuff off with Jack Joseph Puig, who was ensconced at Ocean Way Studio A, where he did tons and tons of great 90’s music.

Chris + Chris: One of the best.

Jason: Right? And, as I was like- Pushing tonic's gear in or out of Ocean Way for the- Like 12th or 13th time, one of the managers at Ocean Way said “Hey, I see you around here a lot.” And I was like, “Yeah.” He was like, “Hey, uhm, what do you do?” And I was like, “Oh, I'm just doing cartage for so and so.” And, it's like, “Oh yeah, can you bring your resume in tomorrow? We're looking to hire somebody for the equipment rental company.” And I was like, “This might be a good thing.” And so I went back the next day, and they hired me on the spot, and I worked there for like 12 years.

Chris + Chris: Amazing.

Jason: You could look at records made in Ocean Way, between- And Record One, and a lot of all around Hollywood, because I was delivering gear to Rick Rubin's people-

Chris + Chris: Right.

Jason: -Did that Johnny Cash, Nine Inch Nails, a lot of cool records that I got to just, sort of be a fly on the wall in, for like, the very first five minutes or the last 15 minutes of.

Chris + Chris: Right, and that's kind of an interesting segue, I would love to hear your thoughts on this: What 90’s records, for you, do you think would give Blue Album a good run for its money? What would make for an interesting conversation?

Jason: 90’s albums? I mean like-

Chris + Chris: Yeah, we're sticking to the 90’s for now.

Jason: I mean, how can you- How can you go past Superunknown by Soundgarden? Without just saying “Is there a better 90s rock opus?”

Chris + Chris: Right, that's a huge record, in every sense.

Jason: I think that every Rage Against The Machine record made in the 90s is a masterpiece, personally, that's a personal fave.

Chris + Chris: What would you do though? Debut or Evil Empire? If we were to choose one of those two, what should we choose? Jason Cropper choice.

Jason: Oh gosh, that's like having to choose between my- Two of my children, I'm not going to.

Chris + Chris: This is what we do on every episode, it's insane, it's really fun though, it's a great thought exercise.

Jason: I can't- I can't do it, I'm sorry, I don't have the- The emotional fortitude.

Chris + Chris: I appreciate your effort. I edited out, there was actually two minutes and twenty seconds of silence there, while Jason was contemplating that choice, I just want to tell the listeners at home

Jason: Good one Chris, yeah

Chris + Chris: Well, that's great, okay, well, that's good to know, Superunknown and Raging Against The Machine, the Cropper choices, they're both on our list for sure, but it's good, maybe we'll have to prioritize, cuz I don't think you listen to a lot of Soundgarden, Chris, am I right? -No, not really, funny enough I got really into Audioslave, being a huge Rage fan, but I never really got into Soundgarden.

Jason: I- Yeah, I have a Chris Cornell story for- That can wait for another time, because I was working at Ocean Way then, and he was around there then, but for me Soundgarden is the penultimate indie rock band.

Chris + Chris: And it's overlooked, they were the first Seattle band to actually be signed to a major label, I think they were signed to A&M, right? in the late 80s.

Jason: Think about it, I mean, listen to the early stuff and you're gonna hear elements of indie rock that are hidden in plain sight.

Chris + Chris: It's hidden behind the aggression and the kind of- Definitely more of a metal influence there- Outwardly metal influence than the other alternative bands, that's why it actually surprises me to hear, like, the two bands you chose, I'm- They both surprised me given the music that you make, and especially the music you're making now, but it makes sense on a certain level too, because it's riff based, and both bands do harken back on a certain level to that more classic rock sound, at least musically speaking.

Jason: I mean, you can't- You can't talk about 90’s rock bands without saying Nirvana.

Chris + Chris: Our next record is going to be In Utero, we can break that right now.

Jason: What an incredible arc and story, and so sad and so, y’know, and I think, y’know, kind of to bring it full circle to what we were talking about at the very beginning with, y’know, people hurting themselves and suicide or whatever happened there, I think Kurt Cobain's self-destruction, however it ended up, cuz I don't know the, y’know like, there's all this conjecture and weird story, right? But- And not to create innuendo or anything like that, but, I think his- What happened is indicative of what people who are sensitive in, y’know, in current, y’know, generation of kids are suffering from, in terms of an existential crisis and not being able to cope with how, y’know, with just how- How strange our world is for the human experience.

Chris + Chris: Especially when you're thrust into fame, the way that he was, y’know, what a unique circumstance, someone's so sensitive and so open about his anguish and his pain, and having that be the reason why people love you? Y’know? And just. -Kind of a recipe for disaster.

Chris + Chris: Yeah, yeah, it's a tough combination, he was my hero, like, Blue Album was one of my first 10 records, but like, Nevermind , In Utero, were in that mix as- Y’know, and they were my band, they're what- They're why I started playing guitar, y’know, I can't even come close to expressing how much they meant to me, even though I have to say, I don't listen to them nearly as much now, it was like, y’know what I mean like, they- I almost have outgrown them on a certain level, I don't mean to say it in a disparaging way, but just, i'm not there anymore so I don't- It doesn't move me in the same way.

Jason: I'm not as fond of it as I was at the time that it came out, but Siamese Dream is such a cool record.

Chris + Chris: Oh yeah, that's- That’s- That's an absolute classic, and Chris is excited to talk about that one. -Definitely. -It was between that and In Utero, it's funny you mentioned it, because it was between that and In Utero for our next episode, so.

Jason: And of course The Pixies are an important- That whole body of work and- And the way that band works still to this day, y’know, where like Frank Black doesn't have a set list and just call- He has like a special microphone to like, call out whatever the next-

Chris + Chris: “Wave of Mutilation”! -And they sounded amazing! They sounded so good.

Jason: How many songs do you think they go into a typical show ready to play?

Chris + Chris: I know, it's not like they're Phish, y’know, they go up and there's 250 songs they can theoretically play but, Pixies’ a lot, and they're making new material still to this day! Which is awesome! Cuz Frank Black is one of the most creative humans, y’know

Jason: And I remember when there was like, a little bit of like- Like people were wondering and kind of like- I saw him at Sound City Studios in, I think it was 1996 or 7, when Chopper One had to y’know, recut a song for what became the- The Now Playing Chopper One album, and, our drummer at the time, Tyrone Rio, really talented drummer, he was a huge, y’know, Pixies fan and Frank Black fan and- And sat and talked with Frank, and I- And of course, y’know, my work with Weezer came up in the conversation, and I- I never heard this directly from Frank but I remember at some point, the rumors coming around about how Frank Black was like, "I'm upset with Weezer because they stole my ideas or my sound or something like that.” I don't know if that's true or not, but I found it so nice that they went out and co-headlined, y’know, tours together, right? And that, in a way, Weezer kind of reintroduced the Pixies to a whole new generation of fans, y’know, because Weezer's fan base has just continued to grow generationally.

Chris + Chris: Yeah, we can speak to that, being at that show with the Pixies playing before Weezer, I mean, I would say 60% of that crowd did not have a clue who they were, but you better believe they rocked the crowd hard. -No it was awesome, I was so happy to see how eclectic the- The group of fans was in that entire place, I mean, you had little kids who looked like they might have been nine or ten, and then guys- Guys and girls as old as, y’know, 60, so it was really just an eclectic group of people from all demographics, and it was rad. -It was like The Touchers, y’know, from The Grateful Dead, late 80’s scene, y’know, the “Touch of Grey” people? There's like the “Africa”-heads.

Jason: Yeah.

Chris + Chris: Yeah, right, people who are like, Toto fans are like “Oh, this is the band who covered “Africa”, let's go see it live, what a blast!”

Jason: Right, “They're playing on the radio now? Let's go.”

Chris + Chris: Yeah, then the Pixies came on and like “Never mind, we gotta go, this is this is too much”

Jason: Yeah, “We're- Let's go buy a t-shirt.”

Chris + Chris: Exactly, “I'm going to get a Weezer t-shirt, thanks.”

Chris + Chris: Well, Jason, I- I think we've done our job here, I think we definitely talked about The Blue Album.

Jason: I feel clear about it, Chris, I feel like we've done some important mining of the old information that's still rattling around in my mind.

Chris + Chris: I'm happy to hear. -That's awesome, and to be honest with you, Jason, I don't think that was the goal, by any mean, was to, y’know, rattle anything loose that you might have not thought about in a long time, I think our- Our goal is just to- To kind of get just some some insider info, so, if this has been beneficial for you, then by all means that- We're- We're incredibly grateful.

Jason: I'm grateful too, like we talked about earlier, I have to pinch myself when people want to talk about this, I'm like, “Wow, that's real, people love that record, I got to- My name is on it somewhere and they want to talk to me, so, it- It actually happened, it wasn't all a dream.”

Chris + Chris: No, I think, you- You can probably attest to a lot of this information better than some of the other band mates, to be honest, I mean Rivers is not exactly the most eloquent speaker when it comes to his interviews, or- Or answering a question with as much depth as you just did.

Jason: I think also, these guys have worked on a lot of other records as Weezer, and when a band has a really successful first record, it's typically considered a, y’know, a rite of passage to also have a sophomore slump, which they did and in a way that actually is like a phoenix in terms of influence-

Chris + Chris: Absolutely.

Jason: -With Pinkerton and, so, they've been busy with other stuff, so yeah, they don't need to talk about The Blue Album anymore, they- That was then, right? For me, it's like the glory days, right? I'm like the guy who like, played football in high school, and like “Oh, I could’ve-”, Y’know, like Uncle Rico from-

Chris + Chris: Yeah, Napoleon Dynamite. -From Napoleon, Yeah, for sure

Jason: “Oh man, I could throw this football over those mountains! Back in the day…”

Chris + Chris: Man, well, nice analogy. -For sure. -I'm glad we didn't make it!

Jason: Yeah, I mean, Uncle Rico serves a purpose, right? He comes around in the end, y’know, it's fine.

Chris + Chris: And you served an amazing purpose, to put it completely inhumanly. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us, it was really an honor and a pleasure, I think we learned a lot, I know we learned a lot. -I know, yeah, I was gonna say “‘I think’? Jesus.” -And I just know our listeners got so much out of this, so, thank you so much, and you're welcome listeners

Jason: Yeah, right, well, watch out for my new Jason Cropper album, y’know, at least a six song ep, if not an entire lp, and i'm thinking, y’know, songs will start coming out like, may or june, y’know?

Chris + Chris: Fantastic.

Jason: Just about ready here, so.

Chris + Chris: And listen to our “We'z Talkin' Weez' 2 Thee” episode with Jason Cropper, where he actually debuts two brand new songs, and talks about them in great depth, so, definitely check that out if you're interested to- In the music that Jason's making today, it is amazing.

Jason: Chris, Chris, “We'z Talkin' Weez'” is awesome, thank you for having me.

Chris + Chris: Thank you sir, it was a pleasure.

Chris + Chris: All right, you heard it here first folks, that was our entire conversation with Mr Jason Cropper, and I have to say, from the bottom of my heart, I hope that you guys enjoyed listening to that as much as we enjoyed having it. -Yeah, it was a purely joyous experience, he's a great guy, with a great mind, and some wonderful insight to some wonderful music goodness. -Couldn’t have said it better myself, Chris. -Yeah, let us know what you all thought! Hit us up on twitter, @WezTalkinWeez, on instagram, same, @WezTalkinWeez, shoot us an email, weztalkinweez@gmail.com, and, I- We broke it here first, but on the next Blue Album Battle, we're going to be talking about Nirvana's In Utero. -This is going to be a big ol’ discussion, my friend. -Uh-huh! So, that's coming up on the next, Blue Album Battle!